Question:
Hey, don’t take my word for it: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Music-of-the-United-States "By the 16th century, the large-scale immigration of English, French and Spanish settlers occurred, followed by the importation of Africans as slaves. The Africans were as culturally varied as the Native Americans, descended from hundreds of ethnic groups in West Africa. *****It is the profound influence of African-American music on these indigenous and European-descended cultures that marks American music as distinct from any other. ****** (emphasis added) Immigration from China began in large numbers in the 19th century, most of them settling on the West Coast. Later, Japanese, Indian, Scottish, Polish, Italian, Irish, Mexican, Swedish, Ukrainian and Armenian immigrants also arrived in large numbers. In the 19th century, African-Americans were freed from slavery following the American Civil War. The music of these slaves was primarily African in origin, displaying polyrhythm and other distinctly African traits. Work songs were popular, but it was spirituals which became a major foundation for music in the 20th century. Spirituals (or Negro spirituals, as they were then known) were Christian songs, dominated by passionate and earthy vocals. More rhythm-oriented dance music was also popular, especially at the turn of the 20th century, when African-American ragtime spread from urban blacks to whites across the country". — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, > Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. > Okay, John, this list of yours is a long, long way from "virtually all > popular music of this century has its roots in West African rhythms, which > is where the "pocket" concept originated." The styles you’ve listed don’t > even come close to virtually all popular music of the century, in fact, it > would represent a small fraction of all popular music. If you look at > overall record sales (and you have to, if you’re talking "popular" music, > and depending on how broadly you define the term "rock", then most of the > styles you’ve listed are a minor blip. The biggest-selling single of all > time in the US was written by Dolly Parton, whose musical roots are clearly > Scots-Irish-folk-bluegrass, and the song itself is a slow ballad. Popular > music in the 20th century was dominated by artists like Frank Sinatra, Tony > Bennett, Engelbert Humperdinck, Tennessee Ernie Ford, The Carpenters, etc. > Arrangers like Nelson Riddle and Billy Strayhorn weren’t doing West > African-influenced grooves. Producers like Mitch Miller, Owen Bradley and > Chet Atkins weren’t doing West African-influenced grooves. Enormously > popular composers like Cole Porter and Burt Bacharach weren’t doing West > African-influenced grooves. You’ve got the whole problem of country and > western music to deal with if you’re talking about "virtually all popular > music." From Buck Owens to Merle Haggard to Willie Nelson to Alan Jackson, > there ain’t no West African in there at all. The whole folk thing — Bob > Dylan and Gordon Lightfoot weren’t doing no grooves. Don’t underestimate > the popularity of acts like Bread, Seals and Crofts, America, etc. With few > exceptions, big-band music of the 30s and 40s had a lot more to do with > music-hall tradition and John Philip Sousa marches than anything done in > West Africa. Look at big acts like Elton John, John Denver, even the > Eagles. Go down the list of Elvis Presley’s hit singles and look at how few > of them really are blues-based. Hell, even look objectively at most of > Motown’s big hits — they had very little to do with anything you could > trace back to West Africa. And then look at the Beatles — the subject of > the biggest all-time musical lie that everyone seems to accept as universal > truth: "The Beatles were just recycling American black music." The truth is > that the Beatles, early on in their career, covered a handful of Chuck > Berry, Barrett Strong, etc., and then never did anything again that > resembled "American black music" (whatever that is — as if all American > black music fits in one category). From Norwegian Wood to When I’m > Sixty-Four to Yesterday, I don’t care where you look, you ain’t gonna find > American black music, or anything West African. There are so many > influences found in modern pop music, African is one of them, but it’s not > as important as folk, or classical, or English music-hall, or Broadway show > tunes, etc.
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> Google this: bass player behind beat
I did this, but it doesn’t really shed much light. It seems that drummers basically want the bass to be right in with them. For example, Peter Erskine says: When I play a quarter-note pulse on my ride cymbal, I visualize the tip of my stick as the tip of the bass player’s finger plucking the string. I think this issue is often confused with swing. It’s very clear (to my ear) that moving the upbeat around from behind the (mathematically exact) eight or sixteenth triplet to right on to ahead of it changes the feel dramatically. Ahead makes it like a fast country swing, right on is a relaxed sound, behind it is like a loping reggae plus some major weed. Drummers do a similar thing with playing an "echo" snare hit an eighth or sixteenth after the main offbeat snare. Letting that lag a bit is very groovy. An example is Eddie Bayer’s line on Wynonna’s "I Saw the Light" (just to pick a pop/country example off the top of my head). But… it seems this discussion is about where to put the downbeat. Now, if *everybody* is playing *every* beat ahead or behind the "beat"… then everybody is back on it! So what the h— are we talking about here? The bass playing ahead or behind the quarter-note ride cymbal? Ahead or behind the bass drum? I have never met a drummer (or other band members) who wanted me to play ahead or behind the bass drum. Now. There is the phenomenon that in order for the bass to *sound* in with the bass drum, you have to play it a bit early because it takes some time for the note to grow, and some time for the ear to latch on to it. But then it *sounds* right in with the bass drum. I would have a very hard time consistently leading or lagging the bass drum. So let’s get more specific. Ahead or behind what part of the drum line? Andrew
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> >Of course it’s almost impossible to be sure where anything derived from, >there are such strong similaritires between rhythms from all over the >place, > I worked with a chinese woman who is a Pipa (a 3 string lute) virtuoso > whose improvisation sounded heavily influenced by Lightning Hopkins and > Mississippi Fred McDowell. She’d never heard of those guys or really > listened to the blues at all. though.
We have a Taiwanese erhu player (2 string violin) in our band and our music is derived from all over the place. No matter what we play he can pick something that fits – and he swings like Django Reinhardt even though I don’t think he’d ever heard of him before. Very often one member of the band will play something from, say, macedonia, and someone else will say "Oh, we have that same rhythm in Taiwan". Which is why I’m now so suspicious of "This derived from such and such part of the world" statements, when it could just as easily have derived from many other places. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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> OK, I’ll say this again: > I DID NOT say all music comes from Africa! (although in a sense, we ALL > come from Africa).
What you said was "virtually all popular music of this century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" concept originated." If you’d said, "the pocket originated in West Africa and has since been incorporated in the majority of popular musical forms" I would have far less issue with the statement. Which is to say I’m not entirely *convinced* that the origins of ‘the pocket’ are west african, I believe that a similar concept has evolved wherever melodic (especially bass) instruments play with percussive instruments. However, I don’t wish to get embroiled in "this pocket is more like that pocket" arguments. Instead you placed the emphasis on *all* and *roots*. The all part is clearly wrong on two counts, the world is very big, most popular music isn’t strongly influenced by the ‘african derived american’ music of the 20th century. Heck, even most *american* music (country, folk, bluegrass) has its *roots* elsewhere. To me, the ‘roots’ of a musical form have to be where the majority influence of that form came from. > What I said was: The beat or rhythm of "popular music" from about the late > 1800’s on to today has it’s origins in the West African countries most > impacted by the slave trade.
I think you mean "popular music in America", which is a subset of "popular music". You also have fallen into the ‘Hmm, the slave boats left from West Africa, therefore they must all be West African’ trap. The slave trade in Africa was already well established by the time the Americas got involved, and people were trafficked via long established routes from Central and east africa, as far down as Malawi. > I don’t claim to be a musicologist, but if you > want to learn about shuffle rhythms or playing behind the beat, Traditional > West African music would be an obvious place to start for me.
I feel very uncomfortable talking about ‘west african’ music as though it is one homogeneous form. West Africa is made up of something like 15 countries, and heaven alone knows how many tribes. Each has there own distinctive music. I pick a piece of west african music (toumani diabate, from Mali) and the bass is ahead of the beat. The next pick is Toure Kunda from Senegal – one of my favourite bands – they’re so funky it’s unreal – first track I listen to is just Kora, second one, there’s this little grace note just before the 1 at the beginning of each bar (I wondered where I’d got that technique from). So, I’ll try Rokia Traore, that’s really laid back music from Mali – bugger me if the bass isn’t ahead of the beat on the first track I listen too. I could be wrong on that one though, it took me a while to decide where the ‘beat’ actually was (the piece is kanan neni). If you ask me, the ‘pocket’ as we know it derives from Cuba, where african and european influences (specifically the flamenco compas) were brought together. I’m not going to state that as a ‘fact’ though, just offering it up for debate. The point I’m trying to make is that the conceipt that ‘american popular music’ is derived from ‘west african rhythms’ is something originated by white ethnomusicologists with too narrow a focus and who hadn’t listened to enough. These days, when recordings of fragments from all over are available – and more importantly people are travelling and talking about their music in person – the origins of streams of music just become more difficult to trace. Just as you think you’ve got the clave pinned down to a place in Cuba, where it was derived from a rhythm from a place in Africa you hear something so similar in Flamenco. Which came first? Maybe it’s no longer possible to tell. — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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OK, I’ll say this again: I DID NOT say all music comes from Africa! (although in a sense, we ALL come from Africa). What I said was: The beat or rhythm of "popular music" from about the late 1800’s on to today has it’s origins in the West African countries most impacted by the slave trade. I don’t claim to be a musicologist, but if you want to learn about shuffle rhythms or playing behind the beat, Traditional West African music would be an obvious place to start for me. C&W does indeed share some elements of this history. It mixes European folk music with elements of Blues and Gospel. Nowadays, you can also add rock to the mix. Like most other things in America, our music is a mongrel mix of cultures that just happened to be thrown together, yet the result is greater than the sum of the parts. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, > Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. > All have their origins in African rhythms – west African in particular. > Well, allowing for confused ethnomusicologists who assume that, because > the slaves *departed* from West Africa they (or their music) > *originated* there, I’ll give you those styles as largely African > derived. > However, my understanding is that by far the most popular form of music > played in your US of A over the last century is "Country and Western" – > which has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa. > That’s ignoring the huge body of European popular music from the last > century (we haven’t lived enough of this century to tell) that has it’s > origins in Europe and the middle/near east, or the huge body of middle > eastern popular music that has its origins in the middle east, europe > and asia, or the huge body of popular music played throughout India and > asia that only has a tangential association with Africa… > — Derek > — > Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand > http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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>Of course it’s almost impossible to be sure where anything derived from, >there are such strong similaritires between rhythms from all over the >place,
I worked with a chinese woman who is a Pipa (a 3 string lute) virtuoso whose improvisation sounded heavily influenced by Lightning Hopkins and Mississippi Fred McDowell. She’d never heard of those guys or really listened to the blues at all. though. >and after two or three centuries of global cultural assimilation >and diaspora it’s almost impossible to find an untainted example of any >musical form to compare against.
That’s the truth. It’s still interesting and really good for your playing to try and figure out where the music you like comes from. I’m finding it increasingly harder definitive statements on something’s origin though as I keep hearing new things in music I’ve been listening to for years. Just when you think you got it all figured out… jeffb
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I’ll buy that – I mustn’t have read your statement properly. My bad. Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I never said ALL western music comes from Africa. Obviously, modern melodic >and particular harmonic approaches have Classical European origins. But I’m >sure as shit that Bootsy Collins’ GROOVE did not come from Bach. >Recipe for "groove" oriented music: Start with African slaves brought to the >Americas. Take West African tribal music, add European instruments, put >European Melodies and harmonies on top, throw in some pentatonic scales and >indigenous elements – mix well and let simmer for 500 years. >What I’m TRYING to show you is the origin of beat and pocket, which is what >you asked about. Please take a listen to the examples I posted, and see if >you can hear what I’m talking about.
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> Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, > Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc.
Okay, John, this list of yours is a long, long way from "virtually all popular music of this century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" concept originated." The styles you’ve listed don’t even come close to virtually all popular music of the century, in fact, it would represent a small fraction of all popular music. If you look at overall record sales (and you have to, if you’re talking "popular" music, and depending on how broadly you define the term "rock", then most of the styles you’ve listed are a minor blip. The biggest-selling single of all time in the US was written by Dolly Parton, whose musical roots are clearly Scots-Irish-folk-bluegrass, and the song itself is a slow ballad. Popular music in the 20th century was dominated by artists like Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Engelbert Humperdinck, Tennessee Ernie Ford, The Carpenters, etc. Arrangers like Nelson Riddle and Billy Strayhorn weren’t doing West African-influenced grooves. Producers like Mitch Miller, Owen Bradley and Chet Atkins weren’t doing West African-influenced grooves. Enormously popular composers like Cole Porter and Burt Bacharach weren’t doing West African-influenced grooves. You’ve got the whole problem of country and western music to deal with if you’re talking about "virtually all popular music." From Buck Owens to Merle Haggard to Willie Nelson to Alan Jackson, there ain’t no West African in there at all. The whole folk thing — Bob Dylan and Gordon Lightfoot weren’t doing no grooves. Don’t underestimate the popularity of acts like Bread, Seals and Crofts, America, etc. With few exceptions, big-band music of the 30s and 40s had a lot more to do with music-hall tradition and John Philip Sousa marches than anything done in West Africa. Look at big acts like Elton John, John Denver, even the Eagles. Go down the list of Elvis Presley’s hit singles and look at how few of them really are blues-based. Hell, even look objectively at most of Motown’s big hits — they had very little to do with anything you could trace back to West Africa. And then look at the Beatles — the subject of the biggest all-time musical lie that everyone seems to accept as universal truth: "The Beatles were just recycling American black music." The truth is that the Beatles, early on in their career, covered a handful of Chuck Berry, Barrett Strong, etc., and then never did anything again that resembled "American black music" (whatever that is — as if all American black music fits in one category). From Norwegian Wood to When I’m Sixty-Four to Yesterday, I don’t care where you look, you ain’t gonna find American black music, or anything West African. There are so many influences found in modern pop music, African is one of them, but it’s not as important as folk, or classical, or English music-hall, or Broadway show tunes, etc.
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> >However, my understanding is that by far the most popular form of music >played in your US of A over the last century is "Country and Western" – >which has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa. > Very debatable. Of course there is no denying C&W’s european influences > but by the time it hit the Hank Williams era the influence of the blues > was hugely evident. I’d tend to want to qualify your assessment by say > that "in some ways" C&W has its origins more firmly in Europe than in > Africa because in some ways in most certainly does not.
When I listen to Country and Western, and especially related forms such as blue grass, I can clearly hear melodic and rhythmic patterns trom gaelic music, and also from eastern european music. The original statement was pretty unequivocal – "virtually all popular music of this century has its roots in West African rhythms", and yet the most popular form of music in the USA has it’s roots firmly in Europe – influenced by ‘the blues’, yes, has it’s roots in west african rhythms? I think there is vigorous room for debate on that score. Of course it’s almost impossible to be sure where anything derived from, there are such strong similaritires between rhythms from all over the place, and after two or three centuries of global cultural assimilation and diaspora it’s almost impossible to find an untainted example of any musical form to compare against. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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>However, my understanding is that by far the most popular form of music >played in your US of A over the last century is "Country and Western" – >which has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa.
Very debatable. Of course there is no denying C&W’s european influences but by the time it hit the Hank Williams era the influence of the blues was hugely evident. I’d tend to want to qualify your assessment by say that "in some ways" C&W has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa because in some ways in most certainly does not. jeffb
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->However, my understanding is that by far the most popular form of music >played in your US of A over the last century is "Country and Western" – >which has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa. > Very debatable. Of course there is no denying C&W’s european influences > but by the > time it hit the Hank Williams era the influence of the blues was hugely > evident. I’d > tend to want to qualify your assessment by say that "in some ways" C&W has > its origins > more firmly in Europe than in Africa because in some ways in most > certainly does not. > jeffb
I am amazed at how close some of the Irish and Scottish music is to America’s Blue Grass music. It is easy to see the similarities. African/black musicians of the period led to the development of the banjo. Where would bluegrass music be without a banjo? It wouldn’t. Ed Cregger
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> Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, > Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. > All have their origins in African rhythms – west African in particular.
Well, allowing for confused ethnomusicologists who assume that, because the slaves *departed* from West Africa they (or their music) *originated* there, I’ll give you those styles as largely African derived. However, my understanding is that by far the most popular form of music played in your US of A over the last century is "Country and Western" – which has its origins more firmly in Europe than in Africa. That’s ignoring the huge body of European popular music from the last century (we haven’t lived enough of this century to tell) that has it’s origins in Europe and the middle/near east, or the huge body of middle eastern popular music that has its origins in the middle east, europe and asia, or the huge body of popular music played throughout India and asia that only has a tangential association with Africa… — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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I never said ALL western music comes from Africa. Obviously, modern melodic and particular harmonic approaches have Classical European origins. But I’m sure as shit that Bootsy Collins’ GROOVE did not come from Bach. Recipe for "groove" oriented music: Start with African slaves brought to the Americas. Take West African tribal music, add European instruments, put European Melodies and harmonies on top, throw in some pentatonic scales and indigenous elements – mix well and let simmer for 500 years. What I’m TRYING to show you is the origin of beat and pocket, which is what you asked about. Please take a listen to the examples I posted, and see if you can hear what I’m talking about. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …except for all the harmony we took from Bach and his > contemporaries…. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t African. > Steve, eh? >Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, >Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. >All have their origins in African rhythms – west African in particular. >IMO uniflying elements are the "3 on 4" polyrhythms, and the delayed beats >which often create a "loping" rhythm pattern. >I guess the best thing to do is listen. Here is some traditional drum music >from Ghana: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001003/0/002-11… 3185657 >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001005/0/002-11… 3185657 >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001006/0/002-11… 3185657 >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001007/0/002-11… 3185657 >Not very hard for me to see the connection. Replace the forbidden drums with >guitar, banjo and horns, and you have the beginings of Blues and Jazz.
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[snippage] > As for playing ahead of the beat – hate to say it, but that’s usually > the province of white guys playing punk and metal. The best examples I > can think of today are Green Day and Blink 182. I just bought a Meshuggh > CD that pushes the peat pretty intensely.
Hmm, I’ve always wondered… what about (not yet Sir) McCartney playing the bass part for TaxMan? That sounds really aggressive. I haven’t tried any visual computer tools to analyze it and I’m not sure my ear is good enough, and I suppose I don’t even know what to listen for… Is he playing right on top of the beat? Even a bit ahead of the beat in the fast (stumbling?) part? It seems to work in that tune, contributing a psychological feeling of paranoia and unease (waiting for an audit?). …or maybe I’m just another white guy, commenting on another white guy? BTW, is that the (supposedly typical) Rick bass "klank" on hears in there? …just trying to learn some… (more?) Ah, while I’m tormenting you all… What about major/minor bass patterns? The Beatles rock ‘n’ roll has a decidedly major sound to it, and all the bass parts are major runs. I think I’ve noticed some bass players playing minor bass runs to what would otherwise be major chords. I’ve done that myself in some tunes, because it seemed to sound better that way. Tin ear? or is that understandable (if not excusable) on the basis of musical "colour"? When I realized the discrepancy, it really bothered me. Help? …reminds me of a jazz piano player that I saw on TV who would only play "shots" with fists or palms. Didn’t sound as bad as I thought it should. Another question: I remember (at least) one recording where Taj Mahal is yelling for the band? bass? to "push it, push it". Is that because they were laying too far behind the beat? He did slowly "push up the tempo". TIA — Juhan Leemet Logicognosis, Inc.
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> virtually all popular music of this > century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" > concept originated.
I assume you mean the 20th century, not the current one. If so, then this statement is wildly wrong. John, give me some basis for saying that virtually all popular music of the last century has its roots in west African rhythms.
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Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. All have their origins in African rhythms – west African in particular. IMO uniflying elements are the "3 on 4" polyrhythms, and the delayed beats which often create a "loping" rhythm pattern. I guess the best thing to do is listen. Here is some traditional drum music from Ghana: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001003/0/002-11… http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001005/0/002-11… http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001006/0/002-11… http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001007/0/002-11… Not very hard for me to see the connection. Replace the forbidden drums with guitar, banjo and horns, and you have the beginings of Blues and Jazz. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> virtually all popular music of this > century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" > concept originated. > I assume you mean the 20th century, not the current one. If so, then this > statement is wildly wrong. John, give me some basis for saying that > virtually all popular music of the last century has its roots in west > African rhythms.
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…except for all the harmony we took from Bach and his contemporaries…. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t African. Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Rock, Metal, Blues, Jazz, Afro Cuban, Latin (general) Funk, Disco, Reggae, >Rock Steady, Soul, Motown, etc etc. >All have their origins in African rhythms – west African in particular. >IMO uniflying elements are the "3 on 4" polyrhythms, and the delayed beats >which often create a "loping" rhythm pattern. >I guess the best thing to do is listen. Here is some traditional drum music >from Ghana: >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001003/0/002-11… >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001005/0/002-11… >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001006/0/002-11… >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B0000058W6001007/0/002-11… >Not very hard for me to see the connection. Replace the forbidden drums with >guitar, banjo and horns, and you have the beginings of Blues and Jazz.
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Jesus, I can’t write today. Besides way too many "Howevers", that should read "bass and drums" not "ass ands drums". Feel free to insert your own jokes here. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Unless you playing a symphony gig, the Lawrence Welk Show, or a in Rush > cover band, it’s ALWAYS appropriate. virtually all popular music of this > century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" > concept originated. > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > The pocket itself is malleable and changes from tune to tune. However, it > should be consistent throughout the same tune. However, the ass ands drums > will "dig in" on some tunes and push the tune forward by pulling farther > back into the pocket. > As for hits and syncopations, these are always felt and played in relation > to the current pocket. One of my personal irritants when playing big band > charts is guys (ie drummers, horn players) who can swing the tune in the > pocket, but who play hits and kicks on the beat like they’re in music theory > 101. > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Tons. Some great examples are: Stevie Ray Vaughn and Double Trouble, any > Count Basie album, any Gene Harris/Three Sounds/Les McCann/Ahmad Jamal > album, Miles "Kind of Blue" or any of the Prestige releases (Cookin’, > Workin’, Smokin’ etc), Any Classic James Brown track, Any > Parliament/Funkadelic album, The Meters, Sly Stone, Al Green, Booker T and > the MG’s, Sam and Dave, Any mid 60’s Motown tune, etc. > You get the idea. > As for playing ahead of the beat – hate to say it, but that’s usually the > province of white guys playing punk and metal. The best examples I can think > of today are Green Day and Blink 182. I just bought a Meshuggh CD that > pushes the peat pretty intensely. > — > Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm > "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — > George Orwell > So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh?
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> So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly.
The choice of playing ahead of, or behind, the beast is one of the tools you, as a bass player, has of changing the feel of the piece. > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?)
To simplify incredibly – if you want the piece to sound more relaxed, play behind, if you want it to sound more edgy and excitable play ahead. > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely?
You should generally do this uniformly throughout any given section of the piece. If you start moving around it will sound messy and confusing. You may want to play in a different place for a bridge section. The lead melodic instrument may often change the phrasing during a solo or melody, but bass and drums should be solid – otherwise you all end up just drifting around. Of course, during solos you should feel free to experiment with phrasing ahead or behind the beat – just make sure you trust your drummer to stay rock steady if you choose to do so – and vice versa. > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat?
Listen to some ‘Police’ – ‘Tea in the Sahara’ springs to mind, but really anything up to syncronicity would be a good start. Those guys played with feel by playing in different places relative to ‘the beat’. It’s also worth noting that you can have a situation where *no one* is playing on ‘the beat’, maybe the guitar and drums are anticipated, the bass behind, and the lead melodic instrument weaving around all over the place for feel. I remember doing a recording to a ‘click track’, once everyone had done all their parts it was sounding clinical and lifeless … until the sound engineer muted the click and the piece came to life. No one had been playing ‘on’ the beat (as defined by the click) and taking it away left a hole full of feel. — Derek — Many Hands – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/
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I’m familiar with Google… I was looking for current people’s opinions – some people that I know from the group, etc. Thanks, Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh? >Google this: bass player behind beat >You will get a couple of names, mostly interviews with people commenting >on players playing ahead or behind the beat… >Chris >Chris
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> When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?)
Unless you playing a symphony gig, the Lawrence Welk Show, or a in Rush cover band, it’s ALWAYS appropriate. virtually all popular music of this century has its roots in West African rhythms, which is where the "pocket" concept originated. > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely?
The pocket itself is malleable and changes from tune to tune. However, it should be consistent throughout the same tune. However, the ass ands drums will "dig in" on some tunes and push the tune forward by pulling farther back into the pocket. As for hits and syncopations, these are always felt and played in relation to the current pocket. One of my personal irritants when playing big band charts is guys (ie drummers, horn players) who can swing the tune in the pocket, but who play hits and kicks on the beat like they’re in music theory 101. > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat?
Tons. Some great examples are: Stevie Ray Vaughn and Double Trouble, any Count Basie album, any Gene Harris/Three Sounds/Les McCann/Ahmad Jamal album, Miles "Kind of Blue" or any of the Prestige releases (Cookin’, Workin’, Smokin’ etc), Any Classic James Brown track, Any Parliament/Funkadelic album, The Meters, Sly Stone, Al Green, Booker T and the MG’s, Sam and Dave, Any mid 60’s Motown tune, etc. You get the idea. As for playing ahead of the beat – hate to say it, but that’s usually the province of white guys playing punk and metal. The best examples I can think of today are Green Day and Blink 182. I just bought a Meshuggh CD that pushes the peat pretty intensely. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh?
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Thanks. Steve, eh? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Personally I find it appropriate when I play with a drummer who has a real >command of placement, IE if he ’s forward and strong, you just snuggle in >behind him, so that your envelopes give his attacks weight. If you played >"ahead" in that case, the groove would never "sit". More of a thing to do, >by my experience, in the blues idiom. Other styles vary, at times the entire >opposite is true. I think you could also describe it as playing right on >with the kick, no flams down there in the bottom , so that he feels as if >he’s playing the bass with his foot. >If you have an audio sequencer , and interesting experiment is to play a >very simple half note or quarter note line , tight with a kick, and then >shift it a few hairs either way , to see the audio effect. There is a sweet >spot where the two just blossom. Let’s just hope we can hit that live >consistently…. >I worked with a great shuffle blues drummer, and he had analyzed it to the >point where he broke his own playing up. He said that he played the kick >"forward" a touch, and the snare "back". In that case the bass felt good >strong and long up the "middle". >All subtle distinctions, but very good to get a handle on. >NeilN > So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh?
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So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This brings me to a few questions: When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with appropriately?) Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots more closely? Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the beat? Thanks for any input! Steve, eh?
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh?
Google this: bass player behind beat You will get a couple of names, mostly interviews with people commenting on players playing ahead or behind the beat… Chris Chris
Response:
Personally I find it appropriate when I play with a drummer who has a real command of placement, IE if he ’s forward and strong, you just snuggle in behind him, so that your envelopes give his attacks weight. If you played "ahead" in that case, the groove would never "sit". More of a thing to do, by my experience, in the blues idiom. Other styles vary, at times the entire opposite is true. I think you could also describe it as playing right on with the kick, no flams down there in the bottom , so that he feels as if he’s playing the bass with his foot. If you have an audio sequencer , and interesting experiment is to play a very simple half note or quarter note line , tight with a kick, and then shift it a few hairs either way , to see the audio effect. There is a sweet spot where the two just blossom. Let’s just hope we can hit that live consistently…. I worked with a great shuffle blues drummer, and he had analyzed it to the point where he broke his own playing up. He said that he played the kick "forward" a touch, and the snare "back". In that case the bass felt good strong and long up the "middle". All subtle distinctions, but very good to get a handle on. NeilN
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So – at the gig last night, the drummer suggested that I play behind > the beat more. I found this interesting – he tells me that a lot of > the great bass players he plays with do this regularly. It felt kind > of weird, but I was starting to get it, and he was loving it. This > brings me to a few questions: > When is it appropriate? (What style or tempo is this used with > appropriately?) > Do you do it uniformly over the tune or do you hit some of the shots > more closely? > Are there any good examples of recordings of players who do this? Or > – similarly, what are recordings or examples of playing ahead of the > beat? > Thanks for any input! > Steve, eh?
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BUT A rtn flight to the Chathams in only $240 NZ dollars and I can have a flight from Wellington on a Mon and to Auckland on a Thu. Spend three days there and see the Moriori dendroglyphs. I think I’ll be bored, but what is the cost of a flight Wellington-Auckland? The alternative, is, of course, to do Wangarei, Taranaki and Waikato on the way from Wellington to Auckland. Oh, the dilemma! I suppose that is what you’d do, wouldn’t you? — JohnM 